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Agreed! We could keep it simple but just “get together” for a brew!
How would this work with multiple people though? I know with 4 or 5 guys it can
get pretty confusing since everyone’s talking at once……I guess not unlike our live meetings! LOLAnd since we were discussing the length of time one might leave a bier atop the yeast, in the primary fermenter, I thought I’d share this pic. It’s not uncommon for me to break the standard rules when it comes to any number of Belgian-style ales, including ales made with authentic yeasts for Farmhouse ales, trappist-styles or other brews with low-flocculating yeast characteristics. The attached was taken today, on day 24 of primary fermentation for my Golden Hen Saison. I use the Farmhouse 3724 yeast (reputedly from Brasserie De Blaugies). It behaves the same way every time; stays cloudy and poorly flocculated for WEEKS on end, but it is highly attenuated. I “dumped” yeast from the conical today, but only purged about a pint since it was STILL mostly just cloudy ale. seems pointless to waste bier! Gravity is at 1.006 and I expect it to drop to about 1.003, but it will take about 10 days to 2 weeks to do so. I’ll also need to kill any heat in my cellar to get this to drop clear enough for bottling….otherwise I won’t be able to re-yeast it at bottling time because any old yeast that hangs around in suspension will absolutely wreck my bottle-conditioning, and as we all know, without that high carbonation, it just won’t taste right. Despite the cloudiness…this sample actually tastes pretty good, with no off flavors.
Hey Sam, I don’t think I notice any difference at all in the flavor of the product regardless of whether it is conditioned in bulk (i.e. a 5G keg) or in bottles. For example, I often put half of a 10G batch into a corny keg (prime and seal the keg), and then prime and bottle the remaining 5G into 22oz or 16oz bottles. Both portions are kept at the same cellaring temp (usually at least 68F if it’s a “standard” ale). After 12 to 14 days both are conditioned to roughly the same volume of carbonation and both taste the same to me. This applies to pretty much every ale I’ve made like this. I’ve compared a variety of ales side by side with others and we could never really find any significant difference in flavor or character.
From what I’ve learned, I do think your instinct is correct in that (generally speaking) you should not keep bier in the primary fermenter, atop the original yeast for an extended period of time. However moving it to another fresh container (corny keg or bottle) and priming it is a normal part of the process for crafting “real ale”. And in my view, yes there would be a difference between finished products if you chose to keg one half of your batch without priming it versus if you primed the other half. Adding the priming sugar is an important step since it jump-starts your secondary fermentation in the bottle (or keg) which is the whole point of bottle or “cask” conditioning. this rejuvenated yeast growth is what cleans up all sorts of unwanted byproducts that the original fermentation failed to clean up. That’s not to say there wouldn’t (perhaps) be some level of improvement by simply leaving the beer “flat” and unfiltered in the cask, but you would be missing a vital part of the process and certainly would not get the most bang for your buck. The original yeast is all tuckered out, and simply wants to drop out and go to sleep. Versus the new secondary fermentation which is full of vigor and anxious to get to work eating priming sugar (and any diacetyl, or other remaining byproducts along with it!). Plus…an un-primed product would be flat and would require force-carbonating in the end, which sort of defeats the purpose of “cellaring” the bier. Brewers of traditional bottle-conditioned brews (think Chimay, Westmalle, Dupont, etc.) feel that this secondary conditioning in the bottle is so important to the final product, that they actually pitch FRESH YEAST along with priming sugar. In fact for my really big ales (Tripels, Quads, Scotch Ale, Old Ale, etc.) I make a fresh starter to use on bottling day. Particularly with those stonger brews, the original yeast has already been through a war and is now kaput!
Interesting that it popped up earlier than the rest. I’m impressed with that drip irrigation you got there.
I was reminded to finally clean last season’s old dried vines from my arbor, when I happened to look at my hop bed last week and saw new shoots poking through the mulch.
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Hey Aaron – I have never given a lot of thought to my brew house efficiencies, but I have noticed that I tend to regularly get higher original gravities than others using the same recipe. So mashing/sparging hasn’t been an issue for me, but of course that’s only one part of the puzzle….and the efficiency ends there and starts to tumble throughout the remainder of my brewing process. I leave product behind in the kettle more than most since I primarily use whole hops, so a bit of wort is locked-up in all those cones post boil. And if I’m making an especially hoppy ale, and therefore using my hop back, this adds to the lost product. Not to mention transferring from kettle to cellar. There is always going to be a bit of wort in the pump, cellar line and counter-flow chiller. Others who focus more on this will have far more info for you, but I can confirm your 2G boil off is about right. I typically top up my kettle with 4G of leftover sparge water to begin a boil, so for my 10G batches, I’m starting at 14G and over the course of 90min, I’m boiling quite vigorously, which every single time drives the finished volume down to 10G, almost like clockwork.
Sam, this is always an interesting subject for one very important reason; learning/knowing when to identify exactly WHEN an aging beverage has reached it’s peak. As we all know, every bier will reach it’s own peak of conditioning, and then it will begin to go down hill from there. Typically, I think as brewers we are, by default, also our own “cellarman” and so there could be a hobby within a hobby here!
To your question about natural conditioning (upon yeast) and force-carbonating, there is a school of thought (to which I subscribe) that says you are not actually cellaring a bier at all if you simply force-carbonate the keg. Only living, active yeast will make meaningful improvements to the bier through time (combined with proper cellar temperatures). I know there will be those who read this and say, “nonsense, I’ve had many commercial brews that have “aged” in my cellar and taste much better as a result”. I’m not saying there won’t be changes to a filtered and force-carbonated beer that sits around, and if someone likes those changes, good for them, but by definition, it is not truly “cellering”, but I suppose you could call it “aging”. I say the primary change for those biers is simply oxidation, perhaps along with some precipitation of tannins and polyphenols. The same applies to ‘lagering’ bier. Leaving a bottle of Spaten Oktoberfest in your fridge will not continue to “lager” it. It’s already been filtered of all living yeast, so that that point, you’re simply cold-storing it until it gets consumed, there will be no improvements to the bier through time and if anything, it will quickly go downhill from there. All of this being said, naturally-conditioned biers are not immune to off-flavors and may also fall prey to autolysis ,if left on the yeast for too long. …which brings us back to identifying that “peak” of conditioning, which is a very difficult thing to do. I’m thinking the only way to identify that is to do regular tastings, while taking scrupulous notes! Just my perspective.
Hey Sam, I think we all share your hope and vision that things return to “normal”….sooner rather than later. I have a sneaking suspicion that this will extend far beyond May, but we’ll see. Either way, I’m prepared to continue hunkering down!
I’ll reach out to my grain-challenge brew partner and try to figure out how or if we’ll proceed. While I am eager to help out a fellow OTMP with any logistical concerns, part of the fun of this for me was partnering-up to make bier….and then gathering as a group to compare. Without those two elements, it all seems rather pointless at the moment. Just another life-adjustment.. of which there are many these days, but I feel lucky to be healthy at this point!
Adding your barleywine to your summer backstop is a real win. At 8.6%, it should keep well! I’m guessing the ‘hot’ alcohol elements you mention will mellow with time.
LOL at “8 million bottles of high ABV stuff”. I’d say u r indeed ready Ryan! …glad u enjoyed the Faustien.
I know some of you guys have already brewed your “grain bill challenge” brews, and others are still in the planning stages. Just wondering if the current social situation has affected anyone’s decision on going forward with it? I’m tentatively scheduled to do a joint brew day with Jeff, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the shelter-in-place mandate will be extended….in fact, if I had to guess, it will likely be extended more than once in the coming months. First and foremost, while I’ve really been looking forward to the joint-brewing day, I would be reluctant to spend an afternoon in close company with someone else in the current environment, partially since my employer is (for the time being) still paying me to work from home and remain distant from others (Jeff, what are your thoughts on this?). Secondly, I’m thinking I’ve probably got one more brewing in me for the 2019/2020 brewing season (I don’t brew during the summer)….so I’m just trying to figure out what that final brew will be; “grain bill” or something else? I’d probably just shoot for one of my other recipes if we weren’t actually going to be able to gather in June to compare beers. Just wondering what everyone else is thinking here?
OK, gotcha Sam. The ‘barleywine-lite’ sounds like it will be a tasty “old ale” or “English Strong ale”….something like that perhaps? Either way, I think you’ve calculated the aging times about right. The Isolation Amber sounds good too, btw.
So sorry about the limitations on you vacation. That sucks…but the goal is to live to fight again! I predict your trip will happen, but it may just be delayed for an unknown amount of time. Take care of yourself Sam. Ryan told me about how well ordering groceries online works. I thought I might check into it. That’s pretty much the only place I feel like I NEED to go these days, and it also feels like the most likely place one would catch this dreaded virus! By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion that once this thing is over with, we’re all going to be looking at things a whole lot differently than we have in the past. Maybe I’m giving our self-absorbed, ego-driven, instant gratification society more credit than it deserves (myself included here)….but it’s just a hunch and perhaps a hope. OK….I’m getting off on a tangent, but the Doors song “strange days” comes to mind.
Hey Sam, your “Isolation Amber” sounds like a big ale, so your aging time makes perfect sense. I was hoping to make something more along the lines of an ESB, so I don’t think I want it sitting back that long. My standard strength English-style ales seem to be at their very best about 30 days from kettle to glass (which probably matches what happens across the pond). So I’m dragging my feet a bit. ….of course, all of this is in flux a bit, since nobody really knows what the future will bring at this point. Who knows if we’ll even be out of social-distancing by then? So your “isolation amber” may very well be consumed in isolation (great name by the way!).
Hey Evan, I think it was a wise decision to put the meetings on hold for a bit. You continue to show why we have you as our front man. As a person who was just sent away from work by my employer, to work from home as much as possible…..AND as an employee that is now canceling ALL of my programs for the public, I think I would feel a little strange partying on like nothing had changed. It just wouldn’t make sense.
And just an observation regarding who is at risk here. YES….anyone in the older demographics would certainly be hit harder by this thing; I guess the severity would largely follow their level of physical fitness and current state of health. BUT, it might be helpful for those “less at risk” to look at the broader landscape here. The longer this thing hangs on, the more it hurts all of us. I’m thinking of the economy here and how that will affect everyone’s personal finances. This thing is doing major damage and it has the potential to really screw things up going forward. It may not kill a millenial, but it will kill many a millenial’s ability to gain traction on their personal financial security. In fact, it is doing that now for all of us. If we all practice social-distancing now, the better off we’ll all be down the road! …and of course, to say nothing about the viruses chance to mutate and include EVERYONE on the hit list. Suffice to say, we don’t want to give this thing too much leeway. Let’s starve it’s ass! ’nuff said from me….I’ll be thinking of you all as I sip a cold home brew!
I notice you are processing your meats in your brewing area. Someone gave me guff for that once, when they saw me trimming meats for a smoking event in the Bier Barn. My smoker is pretty big with a fair amount of cooking space. And of course it’s a stick burner, so I need to tend the fire throughout the duration of the cook, so it makes sense to be as efficient as possible….so I do LOTS of meat at a time (you can always vacuum pack and toss it in the deep freeze). This person arrived while I had ribs, brisket, brined salmon, etc. sitting all over the place (and piles of trimmed fat in the trash can). I guess they saw it as a possible bier-ruining contaminant). My argument was that I wasn’t trimming meat in the cellar (my primary fermentation area), but rather the brew house. Big difference I think!
BTW….now that you’ve sent these high resolution photos. Everyone’s mouth is watering. You’ve heard this before, but at some point we’re all going to want a taste!
